subplotkudzu | Emirikol First Blood

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Emirikol First Blood

One thing we ran into during the first official set of duels in the Emirikol game was that duels to first blood in D&D - if you count any loss of HP as first blood - are based way too much on initiative. Therefore I'm recommending we use the nicely flexible concept of hit points to instead work with fractions of the character HP.

First Blood is actually 'drawn' when the character has taken over 1/3rd (round up) of his HP total. Since Cyble has 10 HP she actually gets cut or bloodied once she's taken more than 4 points of damage. Deitrich, with 17 HP isn't actually cut until he's taken more than 6. This might not mean much now, where a single hit with a sword is enough to take a 12 HP character past their 4 point first blood, but it would have extended Hiram's fight with his 18 HP opponent past that first rapier touch.

Second Blood, or the desire to fight "until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed" is generally set at taking more than 2/3rds of your HP (round up). Cybele is well blooded once she's taken more than 7 HP of damage, Deitrich can hold out until he's at more than 12 points taken. This is the level of fighting Melas and his adversary were engaged in, which means his critical hit was needed to push the fellow up over the 2/3rd HP mark.

Fighting to the death is often considered 'concluded' once once of the opponents is at 0 HP. Of course, the terms of the duel can stipulate that no healers be present at the match but can be called later, which gives you a pretty narrow window between 0 HP and being dead. Unless it is specifically stated in the terms of the duel that one of the duelists will not leave the field alive it is ungentlemanly to strike an opponent who's already down (and such a duel is technically illegal anyway).

Does everyone agree that this makes sense? I'm looking for something that's workable and not complicated.

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I admit I'm a little biased here, but it seems like initiative *should* largely decide first blood duels, which is why they're so wimpy (as my opponent was quick to point out)

I thought things worked out with all reasonable verisimilitude.

No, he was calling you a wimp for not fighting *to the death* because you had been mouthing off to him and you look like a beardless little boy. First blood duels are fine between peers or people who haven't been egregiously insulted by a bard declaiming made-up faults to the passers-by. That you were unwilling to put your blood on the line your mouth had drawn was what pissed him off. Melas also had good call for a second blood or to the death duel, but while his opponent may still think Melas is a malformed beast, yours actively hates you for being a mouthy little wimp who hides behind other people's honor to avoid the least possible repercussions.

The problem there is that it becomes all too much about speed - as

ladegard and Cambias both pointed out, the only feat worth having in most duels, as most dues will be to satisfaction, is improved Initiative. Take it 2, 3, 5 times as going first becomes all important.

After all, at the start of the duel the initiative loser is still technically flat footed (unless we want to seriously degrade the sneak attack ability), so the slower person is at a lower armor class. By a strict reading of the rules the slower person can't even have adopted a defensive stance or made use of Expertise, so armor class has concievably dropped even further. Since few people are wearing armor in Emirikol and the arrmor they wear is not high in armor bonuses anyway, we're looking at the first round of the fight giving the initiatve loser an AC of about 11, or maybe 13 if we let him adopt a defensive stance.

At the level of the game Base Attack Bonuses will run from 1-4, with strength bonuses, feats and masterwork weapons call it 1-7. But even at first level it's a +2 or so, and that's enough for a good initiative to make a 'duel' to first blood a coin toss, finished with a 50% chance in one round. As levels go up, initiative becomes even more useful - with a +6 to hit that same initiative victory means you'll take the duel 75% of the time in a single round.

That just gets boring - if there's only one successful strategy then why bother with anything else? Max that initiative, max the attack bonus, charge if you can and who cares about damage or HP higher than 8 (which elimiates a huge fighter advantage). But more on HP in the next response.

"After all, at the start of the duel the initiative loser is still technically flat footed (unless we want to seriously degrade the sneak attack ability)"

That's ridiculous. But there's no reason this has to touch the sneak attack rules; just declare that it is not possible to catch someone flat-footed in any combat pre-arranged by both parties.

I wouldn't change the definition of first blood. It's nice and empirical as it is. Once it's happened, everyone at the table immediately knows it. If it's changed to fractions of HP, then it becomes a "was that it?""was that it?""was that it?" situation. I find that less dramatic.

I think what you're looking for is more skillful clashing of swords, which to my eye would require more parrying.

That's ridiculous. But there's no reason this has to touch the sneak attack rules; just declare that it is not possible to catch someone flat-footed in any combat pre-arranged by both parties.

But that absolutely touches the Sneak Attack rules: it degrades them to the points of uselessness in dueling, seriously weakens rogues and pretty much shoots Tom's character design in the foot.

Sneak attack only works if you have someone flat footed, flanked or you successfully feint them (which is a time consuming pain in the butt in D&D). I've already taken steps to improve the aspect of feinting, but if you say that losing initiative doesn't make you flat footed in a duel than rogue fencers are hosed because their best weapon has just vanished. I'm perfectly happy to let you pick your starting stance and use of Expertise before the fight (as those are grey areas in the rules), but saying you aren't flat footed takes away too much from the rogues.

If the consensus is that we don't want to change first blood from first loss of HP (and I'm waiting for others to chime in) expect all serious fencers will have Improved Initiative and accurate attack as it's the only strategy that makes sense - go first, boost your chance to hit and screw damage as 1 point is still a win. Jim stated after that duel that obviously the only smart thing to do was take Improved Init when he made level, and I expect all of you will do so, as not doing so consigns you the losing end of a great many duels. Nearly all duels will be over in the first round and Halfling Fencers with 18 dexes, improved init and the attack and AC bonuses from being Small will rule the field of battle.

As far as this requiring more parrying: the aspect of D&D that covers your ability to defend yourself based on your skill level rather than your equipment is... Hit Points. High level fighters parry more and better than low level ones because they have more Hit Points. Armor Class, as D&D is designed, is based 80% on gear and 20% on skill (by way of feats and Dex mods, which are by and large static), with the assumption that you will upgrade your gear at every opportunity. But Emirikol doesn't have much by way of gear and has social reasons for not upgrading to masterwork studded leather and wearing it everywhere, so AC doesn't provide as much benefit.

Unless you have some other Parrying rules in mind? Weapon vs weapon rolls rather than armor classes, perhaps? Again, that starts to get really freaky when dealing with non-human, non-fencing opponents (did the giant spider parry?) but I'm willing to entertain the discussion....

First up, the duel is a very formalized setting, so I'm not sure that being flatfooted is situationally appropriate. Secondly, it makes my character design pretty much require Improved Feint, but I'd planned on that anyway.

Also, and I know that this one may be my fault, but Improved Initiative is a one time only deal.

Also, and I know that this one may be my fault, but Improved Initiative is a one time only deal.

Yes, you had mentioned that it could be layered at the game. I didn't know one way or the other so I was taking your word on that. Apparently it can't (just double checked myself).

If you're not going to kick about the flat footed rules being changed for a fight then I'll defer on it, since you're the PC would would be most hurt by it. Well, the other PCs might all be a lot of hurt on it if I kept them and then had those halfling rogue duelists attack... if you're willing to take a hit for the team it work out better for the PCs in the long run.

If we remove flat footedness and let you pick stances up front we can get some skill into AC during the fight in several ways which will help. I'm still concerned about the fact that HP have absolutely no bearing on battles to 'first blood', which seems awfully silly when you get up to higher levels. Any thoughts on that?

I'm willing to take that hit, at least in the dueling arena. Remember my claim that this is a fairly ritualized form of combat. In situations that aren't so formalized, the flat-footed rules may still apply. As for HP, I'm not sure. I still think that the reduced hit points, such as they use in Babylon 5, is probably a good way to keep combat dangerous and make levels less important as regards to the ability to absorb damage.

Oh, I agree that this shoould only apply to the formalized duel - get back iin the dungeon or even a good taven brawl and flat footed is in full force.

For those not aware, Tom's suggestion is everyone getting their first level HP (or perhaps their CON as HP) and then getting a set small number per level after that to keep HP low even as levels go up. Sorcerers would probably get 0, rogues and bards 1, clerics and aristocrats 2 and fighters 4, with CON modifiers.

This would of mean needing to find ways to boost ACs, but it could be done.

Any thoughts on this?

"Weapon vs weapon rolls rather than armor classes, perhaps? Again, that starts to get really freaky when dealing with non-human, non-fencing opponents (did the giant spider parry?)"

That's the crux of the matter. This combat system was designed for multi-character fights against monsters, not single combat between semi-identical opponents. I was thinking this morning that it might be better to have a Pendragon-like mutual strike system, but wouldn't that mess up all kinds of feats? It seems like anything is going to have a ripple effect.

I'm not going to add any further comment because I realized I'm not qualified to have an opinion on this. I was thinking in real-world terms, but this about is about a rule set, one that I don't really know that well.

So who is my now-mortal enemy anyhow? :)

It seems like anything is going to have a ripple effect.

Which is why I was aiming for an abstraction of HP, as that wouldn't change the in game value of any particular feat or ability; it would just lay down some guidelines for the defensive value of HP. If everyone would rather have every HP loss indicate a bleeding cut I'll defer, but it will have strong ramifications in feat selection.

I'm not going to add any further comment because I realized I'm not qualified to have an opinion on this.

Of course you are - you're a player. If you really think that there's more emotional impact and tension in having any HP loss count as 'blood' then I'm interested to hear it. I don't want to make duels less tense after all. I just don't want to have you guys at 6th level losing to those 1st level halflings over and over because they're quicker.

So who is my now-mortal enemy anyhow? :)

Hey, we have rules to hack out here - how could the actual plotline be more important than that?

I'm still compiling a database of proper sounding names; I'll pick something well before next game.

"I just don't want to have you guys at 6th level losing to those 1st level halflings over and over because they're quicker."

After the first time, I suspect one side will be hacked off enough to raise the ante.

This is supposed to be similar in feel to the Khaavren books, right? They usually fought until somebody said "I yield" if I recall correctly....

Bec
mechanics? what're those?

"Terms" he said.
The other Hawk frowned. "We have agreed - "
"State them aloud, please," said Aerich
The Hawk nodded. "Plain steel weapons, sword and dagger, to first blood, no healer present, but a healer may be summoned at once upon conclusion."

[that seems pretty formal, and is standard for an official, legal duel. But to illustrate other points let's continue]

Aeirch looked an inquiry at the Dzurlord, who seemed disgusted, but nodded.
The Lyorn stood between them so they were separated from him by five paces and from each other by ten. He raised his hand.
"As your chosen Imperial intermediary, in accordance with the laws of the Empire, I ask if yoou will not be reconciled." His tone of voice indicated a certain lack of interest in the answer.
"No."
"No."
"Very well," he said, and lowered his hand in a motion that was at once graceful and sudden.
Both Hawk and Dzur seemed to be startled but the Dzur recovered first. With a yell she sprang at her enemy, he blade visible only as a blur. The Hawklord barely had time to assume a defensive posture, and at once there was the ringing of steel on steel, which sent a thrill through Khaavren's heart.

[That looks like someone getting caught flat footed at the start of a combat to me, but it could also be the nature of the duel meaning that he *can't* be flat footed and thus is able to defend. Tazendra clearly charged her opponent, but in D&D mechanics she either then missed her attack or if she hit and didn't do enough HP for it to count as a visible wound.]

The Hawk stepped back, and swung his blade wildly and from so far away Khaavren could see it was a useless gesture. The Dzur smiled contemptuously and stepped in, and, to Khaavren's inexperienced by expert eye, she moved with a grace and fluidity that would have made her a worthy opponent of his own sword-master.

[I figure the PCs are 2nd-3rd level at the start of this, and her opponent is equally low level. Maybe even 1st... which means her initial attack was probably a miss.]

With her next step, she beat aside the Hawklord's sword and, with the same motion, gave him a good cut across his right shoulder and down to his chest. The soundd that came from his throat was more a sqeak than moan as he fell over backward, the point of her sword still lodged in hhs chest, breaking two hibs and nearly cutting open his lungs.

[Having learned her opponent's miserable armor class with her first attack Tazendra activates her Power Attack and executes a 2 handed swing with her Bastard Sword. That's d10, +3 for STR and another +2 for the power attack. he goes from 10 HP down to -3....]

The Hawklord's weapons fell from his hands as he lay on the ground, staring upward in horror as the Dzur pulled her sword free and raised it for the killing stroke.
"Lady!" called Aeirch, in a tone that was far sharper than Khaavren would have suspected possible from the quiet gentleman. It was used to good effect, too, as the Dzurlord stopped, looked at him, then sighed and nodded.
"Ah yes," she said, with a hint of contempt in her voice. "First blood."
- The Phoenix Guards, Chapter the First

and there's first blood at low levels.

In the later fight of guardsmen against Kurich and company we get this exchange:
"Very well. And for the judge and the Imperial witnesses?"
"Why," said Khaavren. "I have brought none. And you?"
The one called Kurich, who faced Tazendra, shrugged. "What would you? I have no desire to wait. Let us deal with matters as they stand. Come now, to arms."

And that fight ended when Pel quickly intimidated and then disarmed his opponent, Aierch reduced his opponent to below 0 HP after waiting for the perfect opening, Tazendra took a hit to her shoulder and then pinned Kurich to the ground with her greatsword and Khaaven took a few minor cuts in a long duel before seizing an opening and dropping his foe to very nearly 0 HP, give or take.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Emirikol First Blood

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