Brian Rogers (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
subplotkudzu) wrote2010-08-26 08:42 pm
subplotkudzu) wrote2010-08-26 08:42 pm
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More Translating Characters Between Systems
Some time back I had a series of posts about how supers characters can vary drastically from system to system. With the need for a pair of pick up sessions for my first-Saturday-of-the-month group I have three new PCs built using V&V's random rolling system. I know from direct experience that all three of them are high end characters in V&V terms, so on a whim I decided to see how they'd look in the old Mayfair DC Heroes Game, built to scale to handle the big red S. After that I translated them in Champions, just because.
Here's what happened.
All three PCs were built with V&V's "it's you with powers" structure. Jason's was first, with the powers of Gravity Control, Willpower (taken as a one time minor increase to strength, endurance and agility), Heightened Expertise (small group, unarmed combat and impromptu weapons), Speed Bonus (+25mph ground movement and Size Change-Growth (up to 3x normal height and movement, 27x normal weight, capping out at about 20' tall), and a weakness of Special Requirement (the speed bonus and heightened expertise only work when grown). This settled into Atlas: "after an inexplicable incident on an antarctic vacation granted Jason gravity control powers, he honed his body to Olympic perfection and mastered the ability to use his gravity powers as a spacewarp, effectively making himself a giant for justice! The combination of growth and a high strength gives Atlas considerable HTH damage (making at 4d10 it's twice as strong as a power blast), his increased agility compensates for any speed lost to growth and he's really hard to damage with his high HP score. Plus, his Gravity control (which is mechanically powered by his high STR as well) is potent and versatile. He's a good, solid Avengers level hero.
Mirroring him exactly in DC heroes makes him on par with a member of the Teen Titans, however, well outside the Justice League range. His powers are straightforward enough to model easily (Growth, Running, Gravity Decrease, Gravity Increase, human max physical stats) except for the increase combat accuracy when grown. I ended up having to spend an large number of points buying him Martial Arts with a limitation. It was the clunkiest part of the conversion, but if I wanted to really make him a JLA level hero (to match the Avengers level feel) I'd have to boost everything a lot.
Making him in Champions was also pretty easy, although I suspect my ideas of a good set of Defenses differs from the norm and should likely be pumped up. The biggest challenge was figuring out what powers needed to be included for Gravity Control. I could have just used TK (limit, only to push things up or down) but I added an Entangle to model pinning someone with high gravity, Drain (Strength) to partially model the effects of extra weight, Extra STR only to lift or throw things and Change Environment (which is more versatile in 5E, but also more complicated). Did I need all of those? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not, Maybe I needed more. That's one thing that drives me nuts about specific effect systems. I could have bundled all 120 points from the Gravity Control Multipower into a VPP, but that wouldn't give him the power level he needed. Still, he worked out to exactly 35 points, which with HERO inflation is the new cost for a basic hero (Does anyone else remember when Champions PCs started at 200 points?)
Next up was Karen's PC, and she rolled a measly 1 for number of powers (3 powers rolls, +1 weakness, must drop 1 power, can drop another to lose the weakness). The rolls were Paralysis Ray, Heightened Attack, Transformation (Taken as power activation, which gives 2 more powers and 1 more weakness, but all powers can only be used when transformed ala Captain Marvel. The rolls were Heightened Agility and Astral Projection, with Lowered Intelligence as her transformed weakness). We chucked the Heightened Attack and her weakness of Physical Limitation, we decided, was that her Transform was linked to her Astral projection - only her astral form had powers, and therefore her transformation was stuck with Astral Projections 1 hour time limit and inability to recover power while astral - her astral state, Titania, is fast in movement (astral projection has really fast flight) and action (her heightened agility), can become invisible at will, is always intangible, has limited telepathy and can stun people with her gaze, but the concentration of maintaining the form leaves the rest of Karen's mind a little scattered (-4 Int). Given the v&V rules we gave her a few perks to balance out the limited number of powers - she had some special astral/magical senses, very limited TK and could tune her gaze to leave people dazed and amenable to questioning.
In play, the character was VERY powerful - she could end fights even faster than the gravity controller, was excellent at reconnaissance and detective work and highly versatile. Easily falling into the Avengers power level.
She was a little harder to Model than Atlas, because the rules weren't clear on whether Spirit Form let you launch magical attacks while projected. Since Spirit Form was dirt cheap I decided it couldn't normally, but then jacked up the factor cost to account for how hers could. Trying to model paralysis ray is always a pain, but I put it as a Magic Blast and left it at that, since most people don't have high spiritual stats anyway. I'm comfortable enough with the modeling, especially since the DC Heroes rulebook is full of powers that exist only because one person has them - I figure I'm on safe ground just radically modifying one. Again, however, a Teen Titans level hero in terms of point cost.
Not so in Champions! This was an hours long nightmare, since the way to handle her Astral Form, so simple in V&V and not too hard in DC Heroes, requires buying Duplication with the Duplicate having more power than the base physical form, so every power in the Astral Form has to be reverse calculated to work out the cost of the duplication, which on some level is driving the point requirements of the base form, which also factors into the cost of the duplication.... It's a pain. Worse, the astral form is full of stuff that's really insanely cost prohibitive in Champions. Tell a Champs GM that what you want is an attack that immediately knocks your foes out that can be used while your Desolid. That'll get a laugh. I ended up with a 4d6/def 4 entangle, blocks sight and vision, mental paralysis for a mere 210 active points.
Of course, due to the vagaries of the Duplication rules Titania is actually much cheaper than Atlas - Karen's base form is only 200 or so points (slightly more if we add her Leet Librarian Skilz), even as her Astral Form has close to 600. To get her "balanced" with Atlas her base form needs another 100+ points, which would work out to a 750 point Astral Form. The whole thing is recursive and silly.
On to Calypso, Kristen's heroine with Water Breathing, Adaptation (down-powered a little to be best used against Aquatic pressures and temperatures), Heightened Charisma and Heightened Strength, along with telekinesis (usable only on water) and vehicle (which after some brainstorming became the ability to make organic-looking vehicles out of water, like a Pegasus and a squid-sub to carry her friends under the sea). Again a PC with the ability to quickly immobilize opponents (in her case with water-bubbles, or by getting their clothes wet first and then grabbing that water). We also determined that Kris would have quickly raided the wreck of the HMS Hussar in the Hudson river for the billion or so dollars in gold down there, so the PC is also filthy rich. She fits the classic solo hero mode - she's super strong (can lift about 1.5 tons), with a superhuman presence, hard to hurt, has high speed water and air movement and a personal fortune to back up her exploration. Again, that makes her a great Avengers level hero. All of her powers come from her magical quartz amulet, assidously tracked down through the dairies of an 19th century whaling captain who claimed to have found atlantis.
In DC heroes she was the most expensive of the bunch - since Charisma lifts a lot of weight in V&V compared to DC Heroes stats (Influence, Aura and Spirit) she cost a lot more in the Stats area than the others, and then her adaptation took 3 separate powers (sealed systems, cold immunity, flame immunity). DC Heroes has a Water Animation power that lets you make animals out of water and a Water Control power so those areas were also easy. She was the only one of the three to break into the JLA Power Levels, but I think a lot of that was just having to break out things that were single powers/stats in V&V into multiple ones in DC Heroes, each with a high cost.
Of course, I didn't do that properly at all. All of her powers should have come from a Gadget, which require a totally different set of rules and point costs. But it was late and those rules never worked right anyway, so I skipped them. But I could have lost hours there.
In Champions, however, she's the lightweight: her ability to lift 1600 KG works out to a mere 30 STR, not enough to do any real damage, and her Hydrokinesis is very close, or 33 STR TK. Like everyone else on the team she has a 4d6/Def4 entangle (apparently this campaign's attack of choice) and a 3.5d6 NND vs. Force Fields for bodily fluid manipulation, but she just can't do real damage the way she can in V&V (where her Str and TK are both in the respectable 2d8 range). I ended up doing the Vehicle power as a Summoning with enough points to slap winged flight onto the Horse template. Her point total was 300, even with the cost for Filthy Rich and some skills.
I find it interesting that the women are on par in one game, much more pricey in another and cheaper in a third, but those flip flop, while the guy with the straight up "I hit people" powers was pretty much evenly pricey.
Here's what happened.
All three PCs were built with V&V's "it's you with powers" structure. Jason's was first, with the powers of Gravity Control, Willpower (taken as a one time minor increase to strength, endurance and agility), Heightened Expertise (small group, unarmed combat and impromptu weapons), Speed Bonus (+25mph ground movement and Size Change-Growth (up to 3x normal height and movement, 27x normal weight, capping out at about 20' tall), and a weakness of Special Requirement (the speed bonus and heightened expertise only work when grown). This settled into Atlas: "after an inexplicable incident on an antarctic vacation granted Jason gravity control powers, he honed his body to Olympic perfection and mastered the ability to use his gravity powers as a spacewarp, effectively making himself a giant for justice! The combination of growth and a high strength gives Atlas considerable HTH damage (making at 4d10 it's twice as strong as a power blast), his increased agility compensates for any speed lost to growth and he's really hard to damage with his high HP score. Plus, his Gravity control (which is mechanically powered by his high STR as well) is potent and versatile. He's a good, solid Avengers level hero.
Mirroring him exactly in DC heroes makes him on par with a member of the Teen Titans, however, well outside the Justice League range. His powers are straightforward enough to model easily (Growth, Running, Gravity Decrease, Gravity Increase, human max physical stats) except for the increase combat accuracy when grown. I ended up having to spend an large number of points buying him Martial Arts with a limitation. It was the clunkiest part of the conversion, but if I wanted to really make him a JLA level hero (to match the Avengers level feel) I'd have to boost everything a lot.
Making him in Champions was also pretty easy, although I suspect my ideas of a good set of Defenses differs from the norm and should likely be pumped up. The biggest challenge was figuring out what powers needed to be included for Gravity Control. I could have just used TK (limit, only to push things up or down) but I added an Entangle to model pinning someone with high gravity, Drain (Strength) to partially model the effects of extra weight, Extra STR only to lift or throw things and Change Environment (which is more versatile in 5E, but also more complicated). Did I need all of those? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not, Maybe I needed more. That's one thing that drives me nuts about specific effect systems. I could have bundled all 120 points from the Gravity Control Multipower into a VPP, but that wouldn't give him the power level he needed. Still, he worked out to exactly 35 points, which with HERO inflation is the new cost for a basic hero (Does anyone else remember when Champions PCs started at 200 points?)
Next up was Karen's PC, and she rolled a measly 1 for number of powers (3 powers rolls, +1 weakness, must drop 1 power, can drop another to lose the weakness). The rolls were Paralysis Ray, Heightened Attack, Transformation (Taken as power activation, which gives 2 more powers and 1 more weakness, but all powers can only be used when transformed ala Captain Marvel. The rolls were Heightened Agility and Astral Projection, with Lowered Intelligence as her transformed weakness). We chucked the Heightened Attack and her weakness of Physical Limitation, we decided, was that her Transform was linked to her Astral projection - only her astral form had powers, and therefore her transformation was stuck with Astral Projections 1 hour time limit and inability to recover power while astral - her astral state, Titania, is fast in movement (astral projection has really fast flight) and action (her heightened agility), can become invisible at will, is always intangible, has limited telepathy and can stun people with her gaze, but the concentration of maintaining the form leaves the rest of Karen's mind a little scattered (-4 Int). Given the v&V rules we gave her a few perks to balance out the limited number of powers - she had some special astral/magical senses, very limited TK and could tune her gaze to leave people dazed and amenable to questioning.
In play, the character was VERY powerful - she could end fights even faster than the gravity controller, was excellent at reconnaissance and detective work and highly versatile. Easily falling into the Avengers power level.
She was a little harder to Model than Atlas, because the rules weren't clear on whether Spirit Form let you launch magical attacks while projected. Since Spirit Form was dirt cheap I decided it couldn't normally, but then jacked up the factor cost to account for how hers could. Trying to model paralysis ray is always a pain, but I put it as a Magic Blast and left it at that, since most people don't have high spiritual stats anyway. I'm comfortable enough with the modeling, especially since the DC Heroes rulebook is full of powers that exist only because one person has them - I figure I'm on safe ground just radically modifying one. Again, however, a Teen Titans level hero in terms of point cost.
Not so in Champions! This was an hours long nightmare, since the way to handle her Astral Form, so simple in V&V and not too hard in DC Heroes, requires buying Duplication with the Duplicate having more power than the base physical form, so every power in the Astral Form has to be reverse calculated to work out the cost of the duplication, which on some level is driving the point requirements of the base form, which also factors into the cost of the duplication.... It's a pain. Worse, the astral form is full of stuff that's really insanely cost prohibitive in Champions. Tell a Champs GM that what you want is an attack that immediately knocks your foes out that can be used while your Desolid. That'll get a laugh. I ended up with a 4d6/def 4 entangle, blocks sight and vision, mental paralysis for a mere 210 active points.
Of course, due to the vagaries of the Duplication rules Titania is actually much cheaper than Atlas - Karen's base form is only 200 or so points (slightly more if we add her Leet Librarian Skilz), even as her Astral Form has close to 600. To get her "balanced" with Atlas her base form needs another 100+ points, which would work out to a 750 point Astral Form. The whole thing is recursive and silly.
On to Calypso, Kristen's heroine with Water Breathing, Adaptation (down-powered a little to be best used against Aquatic pressures and temperatures), Heightened Charisma and Heightened Strength, along with telekinesis (usable only on water) and vehicle (which after some brainstorming became the ability to make organic-looking vehicles out of water, like a Pegasus and a squid-sub to carry her friends under the sea). Again a PC with the ability to quickly immobilize opponents (in her case with water-bubbles, or by getting their clothes wet first and then grabbing that water). We also determined that Kris would have quickly raided the wreck of the HMS Hussar in the Hudson river for the billion or so dollars in gold down there, so the PC is also filthy rich. She fits the classic solo hero mode - she's super strong (can lift about 1.5 tons), with a superhuman presence, hard to hurt, has high speed water and air movement and a personal fortune to back up her exploration. Again, that makes her a great Avengers level hero. All of her powers come from her magical quartz amulet, assidously tracked down through the dairies of an 19th century whaling captain who claimed to have found atlantis.
In DC heroes she was the most expensive of the bunch - since Charisma lifts a lot of weight in V&V compared to DC Heroes stats (Influence, Aura and Spirit) she cost a lot more in the Stats area than the others, and then her adaptation took 3 separate powers (sealed systems, cold immunity, flame immunity). DC Heroes has a Water Animation power that lets you make animals out of water and a Water Control power so those areas were also easy. She was the only one of the three to break into the JLA Power Levels, but I think a lot of that was just having to break out things that were single powers/stats in V&V into multiple ones in DC Heroes, each with a high cost.
Of course, I didn't do that properly at all. All of her powers should have come from a Gadget, which require a totally different set of rules and point costs. But it was late and those rules never worked right anyway, so I skipped them. But I could have lost hours there.
In Champions, however, she's the lightweight: her ability to lift 1600 KG works out to a mere 30 STR, not enough to do any real damage, and her Hydrokinesis is very close, or 33 STR TK. Like everyone else on the team she has a 4d6/Def4 entangle (apparently this campaign's attack of choice) and a 3.5d6 NND vs. Force Fields for bodily fluid manipulation, but she just can't do real damage the way she can in V&V (where her Str and TK are both in the respectable 2d8 range). I ended up doing the Vehicle power as a Summoning with enough points to slap winged flight onto the Horse template. Her point total was 300, even with the cost for Filthy Rich and some skills.
I find it interesting that the women are on par in one game, much more pricey in another and cheaper in a third, but those flip flop, while the guy with the straight up "I hit people" powers was pretty much evenly pricey.